Great Debates Part VI- Sumo vs Conventional DL
March 15, 2009 by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS
Filed under Strength Training
The two popular setups for the deadlift are sumo stance (wide) and conventional (narrow). Both have their advantages and certain body types (long legs vs short, torso size, etc) can favor one style over the other.
Sumo style dead lifts allow the body to be more upright, reduces the distance the bar will travel, and makes the body’s levers more efficient – biomechanical advantages(bar starts closer to the shins, at least off the floor). However, sumo deads require strong and mobile hips. Conventional dead lift utilize the lower back and hamstrings to a greater degree. Also, a few studies have shown that conventional deadlifters tend to have a higher sticking point, which mechanically should be easier to over come. The videos are from Matt Ladewski and AJ Roberts, both worth a subscribe on youtube.
So here’s the question – WHICH STYLE DO YOU PREFER SUMO OR CONVENTIONAL (or neither)? Responses in the comments.
Sumo DL- Matt Ladewski
Conventional DL – AJ Roberts
Visual Approximation of your legs if you choose “neither.”
My Opinion: I prefer to pull sumo style, however I think its important train them both. At 6 ft 5 in tall, sumo stance allows me to get lower to the bar and helps keep a neutral back. Oddly enough, last time I pulled, I missed my heaviest sumo style, but got it conventional. It takes some experimentation, but again, I prefer the sumo stance. (Skinny leg picture is a joke, of course people can get after squats, GHR’s RDL’s, etc. I just enjoy ME deadlifting!)
POST YOUR THOUGHTS IN THE COMMENTS! CHECK OUT THE OTHER FIVE “GREAT DEBATES.”
-Joe Hashey, CSCS –
I am 5’8″ so its easy for me to pull using both methods. I train them both equally as well I prefer conventional because it feels more natural to me but am equally as strong in the sumo.
I’m an easy 50 lbs stronger doing Conventional Deadlifts raw vs. Sumo. I wish I could be strong Sumo, but last time I went heavy I got an injury that hasn’t gone away yet.
I have mixed opinions. I have trained both extensively.
For the regular guy looking to be strong and “functional” I think conventionals should be the bread and butter. Despite body type. I’m talking about when it is not a numbers game but a function of getting better in a sustainable way.
Despite conventionals ridiculous reputation of being a back buster as spawned by those who don’t know crap about deadlifting I believe, on average, it is more sustainable. The torgue on the hips for sumos will break many trainees down if over indulged.
This is just opinion of course..I could easily be swayed by good data.
When it comes to competiion of course it’s about numbers so whatever sytle suffices the best. But everyone has to balance their training.
However, sumos make a GREAT althernative for every trainee.
I definitely agree that the conventional sticking point should be easier to overcome. The mechanical advantage off the floor makes training for RFD much easier and so accelerating through the sticking point gives you many avenues of training.
Whereas the most strenuous portion of the sumo..the liftoff plus the tremendous pressure on the hips means you have to be a bit more careful when working past the sticking point.
Not that you don’t always have to be careful!
I have gone back and forth over time. I pull almost the same both ways. At a power meet I do find it easier to pull sumo at the end of the day after heavy squatting and arching for benching.
But as Louie Simmons says “Conventional builds sumo and sumo build conventional.
I pulled a rack pull record (conventional) against bands 2 weeks ago after not pulling that way for over 6 months.
I will pull either way but right now sumo feels right.
I can lift roughly the same weight with both, but the conventional deadlift ‘feels’ more natural … but the dude I train with can lift a lot heavier using Sumo (and that way feels more natural to him).
I don’t train Sumo very often … when you say that we should train both … are you talking 50/50?
Cheers!
For young athletes and those who have limited training maturity, I prefer teaching sumo due to their inability to create and sustain bracing throughout the entire lift during the conventional version. Trap bar deads could also be rotated in with sumo as a nice compliment.
As the athletes progress from verbal cues to no cues and demonstrate reliable, proficient movement, then I work in conventional deadlifts from the floor.
The progression typically looks like this.
Trap bar deads
Sumo deads
Rack pulls (top – down training progression)
Conventional deads from floor
Kira,
I don’t get a 50/50 split, since I prefer sumo. If I were to throw a number on it, perhaps 60/40.
Smitty, you are right on the the Trap Bar. I had my younger athlets start with it for 2-3 months before I moved it to the straight bar. They seem to have a issue with knee tracking, still working on spreading the floor.
Don’t put athletes on heavy DL’s before they are ready. Youtube search DL’s and you will see some trainers putting young kids on heavy straight bar wellllll before they are ready. Makes you cringe!
Joe
I prefer RDLS first. It teaches them to keep an arch in their low back and lock ou tthe weight with their glutes and drive their head back.
Trap bar is ok to teach at first but for someone who has a weak lockoutor misses at the top it does not help. Plus I don’t have a trap bar.
Fightgeek
If you get your sumo stronger it will help your conventional. If someone can spot where you are weak sumo it may also help your squat and conventional pull. I tell my guys to try one way or the other and commit for 3 months. Then if you want to go back that is fine.
And certain exercises are better to do conventional like rack pulls against bands. If I am getting ready for a contest I pull the way i will pull at the meet. If I am post meet I may switch it up or if something hurts I work around it.
Matt, good points.
Here is what a buddy, Elliott Hulse posted on my Facebook when I put up this link. He makes some good points.
“i use a narrow stance when training and competing… i just pulled a 500 axle for 11 with this type of stance. But i do see the value in using a wide stance with young weaklings as it allows them to maintain their center of gravity over their base of support. this takes their weak abs, low / mid back out of the equation. As they get stronger i introduce them to the narrow stance as it forces greater thoracic extension and core recruitment… just my opinion though (with is always right)
”
Great comments so far.
I agree with both sides of the coin on this one. I do find the sumo lifts easier to teach my high school kids and even adults that are unfamiliar with the range of motion a DL requires. As they progress I introduce a more narrow stance but once they really grasp the technique of the sumo lift it’s awesome because they can really feel the posterior chain being recruited. Working with a lot of basketball players I have to take into account their longer levers. We will often go from blocks but I find as they get strong enough they can get to the floor just fine.
I’m just over 6′ 7″ and I can’t sumo lift a damn, I find it even harder to get down to the bar than conventional. Mind you, I do prefer rack pulls and deads form blocks as the bar seems a real long way down on max lifts from the floor.
I pull conventional now. Here’s how I came to this decision….When I first began seriously powerlifting a couple years ago I was pulling Sumo. This decision was made mostly because my belly was big and my technique was bad so I couldn’t really get down to the bar and up properly Conventional. Recently I started using Wendler’s 5/3/1 program and I’m Squatting and Pulling both once a week. I found that pulling Sumo was taxing my hamstrings, lower back and glutes too much along with the squatting, I was not recovering like I should have, or like I did when I was using a Westside template and pulling less frequently. So I switched over to Conventional and have really enjoyed it. My back has always been very strong and I’m pulling better than ever.
Ken,
Good thoughts. I just completed a 5/3/1 cycle with my two training partners. We all had great increases. Now I’m off of it for a training cycle, then will go back.
Dan, Sounds like tight hips! From 6’7, that is a serious distance down.
I am fairly new to deadlifting. To be quite honest I was afraid of deadlifts based on the biases of strength coaches I used to work under. Now I actually do both conventional and sumo. After having an imprompt to meeting with Louie at Westside here in Columbus, OH I have become a huge proponent of deadlifts.
After working with both combat and conventional athletes I have seen that a lack of thoracic mobility/extension, tight hamstrings, tight external hip rotators and tight hip flexors usually prevent individuals from being able to really “get into their hips” in order to truly work the posterior chain without compromising lumbar stability. A lack of hip mobility will cause the lumbar spine to become abnormally mobile which may lead to low back pain and or injury.
I switched to sumo when I wasn’t making progress with conventional stance and it made a big difference – put kgs on my deadlift. I started using it in competition and found that most of the other girls were pulling sumo too.
I guess it suits many women because we tend to have decent flexibility and strong legs and hips.
I still train conventional stance too as I don’t want my back strength to suffer. Doing exercises like deadlift from a deficit and (as mentioned above) rack pulls are also easier in conventional stance.
p.s. Great video Matt!