The Great Debates Part II – Olympic Lifting vs Other.
January 18, 2009 by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS
Filed under Strength Training, Strength Training Debates
Last week’s debate was on Training Failures. This week is more serious. The debate to include olympic lifting in athlete training programs has been raging over the last few years. It seems that many trainers are taking olympic lifts out of the programs. Let’s hear your opinions!
Olympic Lifting
Pros
- Large muscle groups utilized.
- Benefits balance, core strength, and coordination.
- Provides an explosive training technique.
Cons
- Good technique required to be effective.
- Takes time to teach good technique. That time could be used doing other lifts.
- Other explosive training out there that is easier to teach.
My Opinion: I feel that adding olympic lifts can benefit a program in which you train athletes for a long period of time. If you have them for just a season, then the instructional time would be too great to receive much of the benefits. It is tough to beat the force and explosiveness required to perform Olympic lifts. The saying “often imitated, never duplicated” seems to apply here. Yes, tire flipping or keg tossing can simulate olympic lifts, but it just isn’t the same. However, with my younger athletes I do prefer to use the simpler lifts. I’m throwing so much information at them in the first few months, I don’t want to overwhelm them with a complex lifting technique.
Keg Tossing Picture from Joe Defranco’s
To state my bias, my college football training program at Colgate largely revolved around performing the hang clean while occasionally performing the power clean, snatch, and push jerk. I personally enjoyed it, but I can see why it might not be for everyone. The lifts took the right mind set to perform safely, correctly, and with a lot of power.
Many college programs around the country have had great success with training their athletes using Olympic lifts. Are these athletes succeeding because of their training, or in spite of their training. Your thoughts?
POST YOUR THOUGHTS IN THE COMMENTS – ALL OPINIONS ARE RESPECTED AND APPRECIATED!
-J. HASHEY, CSCS-
Great topic. In my opinion the Olypmic lifts are a great method for building explosiveness. But as Joe mentioned it takes time to train athletes the proper technique. The lifts are very technical to do and learn. Having said that I think all sports athletes should use the Olympic lifts. It may take a entire season to train your athlete to do the lifts but if you start with them when you recieve them say freshman year and train them in the off and on season after that first season of learning the lift they will be monsters on and off the field. I think its important to motivate the athletes to lift in the off season to help the TEAM not just them selves because all the plays in the world can help a team tactically win a game but without the strength and power and endurance to beat the other guys down you have nothing but a play book. I say train the Olympic lifts regularly.
Why not both? Granted there is a limitation but I do the following when I can (5 days required).
A 5 day body part split, more functional lifts like chins, front squats … then followed but a few sets of cleans, jump shrugs and snatches.
Gives me a chance to work on raw strength and explosiveness.
I like to bang a few cleans out even after other training, Muay Thai & Jits.
Olympic lifts are excellent lifts for increasing all the components for increasing explosiveness (increase RFD, rate of coding, etc.), but like Joe said they take awhile to learn and teach. I am still currently working on my technique just so I can properly teach them to athletes eventually (I am currently an undergrad, and an aspiring S&C coach so I haven’t had the opportunity to coach Olympic lifts). I think it all depends on the athlete and who is coaching them as well. Athletes who have more experience in the weight room are probably going to have more advanced movement patterns, thus possibly making the lift easier for them to learn and execute. Then from the coaches perspective, if the coach is good at communicating verbal queues and performing the lift for the athlete to see, then maybe that would be enough of a help for the athlete. Another thing to do also, which I am going to start doing myself to help my form, is record the athlete’s lift on video and give immediate feedback after those few reps that the athlete performs, and let them know what they need to do to correct their flaws. I think this would be an excellent visualization queue. I think the Olympic lifts should be used in a team setting where there is going to be daily contact with the athletes for a prolonged period of time, but in the short-term in a more private setting I think it may be a waste of time if the athlete has no prior experience with the lifts as that time could be used to improve the athlete with other lifts and using other tools.
Mike – good point on the video. It took weeks of videoing cleans in college for people to get the idea of proper form (much longer to get it down).
Jason – Agreed, I like them both, and use them both. Mostly strongman and powerlifting with a sprinkle of Oly.
Bill – Gotta love a team player!
I agree with you Jason, train your athletes but “start” using the O lifts in there routine it doesn’t have to be all week deal once or twice a week works!
Anyone 100% in favor of getting rid of oly lifts in their or their clients training programs? I would like to hear more from both sides! Good comments.
OL is banned at Strength Camp the only clean and presses that are allowed at with logs and kegs
Strongman RULES bee-otch!
Ha, only strongmen at the strength camp, huh? Then who let you in! Snap, I went old school!
But seriously, throwing the kegs are a blast, however the path of the keg is further from the body than the bar which hinders force development and puts the body at less of a mechanical advantage. Think a deadlift, easier to pull far away from the body, or right up the legs? Obviously right up the legs. Same concept for kegs, and anything else that is bulkier than a bar.
However, sometimes you have to just do what works, and that’s often what’s more fun!
I think certain athletes can benefit from the olympic lifts at certain times in their athletic career. I like fat bar cleans and log cleans better than traditional OL. One of the best things about them is the element of force absorption and being able to quickly drop down, catch and decelerate the weight. The more force you can absorb the more you can apply. Also it is much easier to break down the OL and teach the movement in stages than all at once. I also think the snatch may be a better movement because it is easier to teach,faster, and wrist flexibility is usually not an issue. I would say it is just another tool in the tool box.
Lee,
Thanks for the input. When you use a thick bar, do you do a double overhand grip or alternate like in WSM with the axles? I’ve never double over handed cleaned, but I can imagine I couldn’t do much weight!
Theres is no better training for synaptic facilitation and maximizing the role of the CNS. However, you have to have enough time to implement a thorough training program. So I agree fully with your opinion that if you have enough time with an athlete, these lifts are a must when developing an athlete’s aresenal.
Personally, I do not think there is a “right” or “wrong” answer on whether or not to include Olympic Lifting in your program.
At Phelps Training Systems, we do not include Olympic Lifts into our program. We feel as though Compensatory Acceleration is best accomplished through box jumps, broad jumps, Speed Squats, dumbbell box jumps, etc.
I do not think Olympic lifts are necessarily BAD, and I do not think that anyone who includes them is a bad strength coach, I just have found that there are a myriad of safer, equally efficient techniques that target rate of force development.
I have seen too many cases of SIGNIFICANT vertical leap increases for me to believe otherwise. The other thing about Oly Lifts is that I think they are a bit rough on the joints, particularly the wrist and shoulder.
For me, they are nice lifts, and I respect those that can perform them well, but I am going to teach a kid how to flip a tire, do a box jump or a speed squat far quicker than a well executed hang clean.
Something else I have often wondered about Olympic Lifts…Why even do the “catch” of a clean at all? Why not just the high pull?
Explosive knee ups are another great option…
For athletes requiring speed, there are more functional exercises than a hang clean, power snatch e.t.c. These lifts may help you jump higher (if you think about the movement pattern and muscles recruited), but not run significantly faster. Olympic lifts involve primarily the quadriceps, not glutes and hamstrings, therefore there must be other exercises that target those muscles.
Rate coding, coordination, stability, core strength .t.c is trained with the oly lifts, but it’s all done in the wrong load vector. In theory, your acceleration should benefit slightly from these lifts, but there is no scientific evidence reporting significant correlations between oly lifts and sprint performance. However, most stidies will report correlations between oly lifts and vertical jump performance. Probably because the quads do the work in a vertical jump too. Plyometrics, sprinting, hills, sled pulls, strength training and power training will hit enough points in the force-velocity curve to ensure speed, strength and power is trained optimally.
Paul